@ralf said:
It sounds like you only wanted feedback that was positive. I was just telling you the things about your site that would cause me to not want to buy any services from you. It's pointless arguing with me here that I got it wrong, because that doesn't help any potential customers who have the same concerns as me.
But, to address a couple of your points:
by your reasoning, do you think my own company that provides software development consulting would be justified to say "We have been designing websites since 1996" because that was when I personally first got money directly from customers for doing freelance web-development work? Most normal people would interpret claims of "we did x" on a company's page to mean "the company did x", unless it is made very clear from the text that you actually mean "people in this company have previously done x". And I've certainly seen many companies who are quite open about it and say things like "we have 35 years of experience between us" rather than trying to attribute people's previous work to their current company.
I still have no idea even what country you are from, so for instance I have no idea whether you work in timezone that will make co-operating on projects easy or not. Nor would I have any idea if there would be VAT implications if my company chose to use your services.
Many countries, including most EU countries, require the company ID and registered address to be visible on a corporate website. Personally, it's one of the first things I check if I'm planning to spend any non-trivial amount of money with a company.
Again, with the information available on the website, there's no way to tell if you have been running your company providing the claimed services since 2016 or whether you speculatively registered your domain 2 years ago and just started up your company last week. If I was going to spend a few thousand on web design, I'd assume the latter unless you convince me otherwise.
But anyway, this is my feedback, take it or leave it. I won't waste any more time trying to justify it to you.
Hello again,
First of all, i was looking for feedback for the new freshed web design and i was more than happy to hear any negative/bad feedbacks too, don't assume i was looking to see only positive feedbacks. Because i am simply responding to your assumptions about 'not much transparency..etc' and trying to explain it to you.
Like the 3d effect which some people did not like, i didn't mind. The point of the thread was to see as much feedback as possible, good or bad may those be. Because after all, i'm looking to improve it and i want to see bad ones, more than good ones.
Also i don't know if you've seen other web designer's websites around, but the only information you need is your portfolio and a contact method. All the business details, VAT requirements, taxes... and so on can be explained and talked once you reach and contact us through your preferred method, email, skype or discord. Because to order our service, you'll have to contact us to start with.
Because i am not selling custom web designs with a 'buy me now' button. That's why we have a FAQ and a 'forced' contact us now part in every page.
And i don't know whatsup with you saying 'i don't know if your agency have been designing websites since 2016 because your domain was registered in 2020'. Because how would you know if my domain was registered in 2016, that i have been designing websites from that same year? Or just domain registered in 2016 is enough to prove i have been designing in that specific year under my business. And why does this even matter? My services are about custom web designs, i have a portfolio to show and if you like my work you can contact for more information, payment method, business details, delivery... etc.
Yet again, like i said. I have a dedicated page explaining how it all started and why we have 'designing websites since 2016'. Because it's the truth.
The quote is: "Since 2016, we've been designing websites for hosting businesses worldwide!" so i believe it's technically correct. My portfolio dates in 2016 for this particular industry (the hosting industry) and therefore i believe i have the right to say it in my website that we have been designing websites for the hosting industry since 2016.
I feel like i am responding somehow in a negative 'vibe' but your accusations/responses about transparency and even 'lying' with the 2016 year part, actually triggered me a bit. Sorry.
I previously said I wasn't going to waste any more time justifying my feedback, so I'm actually reticent to reply, but you seem to have again missed the main point. When used by a company, the word "we" is understood by most native English speakers to mean "the company". You may have been designing websites for years, that's irrelevant to the claim about we (the company). Many smaller and/or new companies are happy to talk about their individual experience, but if there is an unqualified claim about what "we" have done, it represents work done for the company, not individual prior experience. If that work was done prior to your company, then presumably you were working for some other company or you were freelancing. In either case, that work isn't directly attributable to the company.
Also, in my experience, small one or two person companies are generally reticent to provide any details about their company because they want to appear bigger than they are. In general, once a company has grown beyond about 5 people, they want to make their company information discoverable because that's the only way medium-sized companies will even consider them. The impression your company gives off is "one person", especially considering you're so desperate to conflate "we" (the company) with "me" (the person).
As someone looking at the website objectively, both of these are red flags that would cause me to consider everything else on the website more carefully. To me, it doesn't matter in the slightest if I can find out more information about your company by contacting you and asking for it, because it is frankly easier to just discount you and look at alternative providers instead. The only case when that might be different is if you were filling the exact niche I was looking for, and I already knew that nobody else provided that service.
None of this is intended to criticise you or your company, I'm simply telling you how I would perceive your website as a potential customer. I honestly don't care whether you take any of this on board or not as I don't need your services anyway, I was just trying to be helpful. If you want to interpret that as an attack, then whatever, but it wasn't meant that way.
@ralf said: EDIT: just did a whois on your domain, and it was newly created in 2020. So, now I really don't trust anything on your website to be true if you claim this company was doing web-design business 4 years before it even had its own domain name registered.
You don't trust a website because the whois search showed that domain has not been registered in 2016 but 2020 (something i publicly advertise in about us page). And we shouldn't do any marketing that we(me and/or my business) have been designing websites since 2016. Because domain wasn't registered.. therefore i am/we lying.
Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me, how'd you know once again that i wasn't offering web design solutions under my business name without a domain? Because the domain registration seems to have been the most critical issue on the transparency and 'i really don't trust anything on the website now...'. Right! Please answer that question for me. So being a business, as soon as you start offering services you should have a registered domain? How about i was offering my services in this forum for other providers since 2016, under my business name?
And by the way, like i mentioned. I don't know if you have taken a good look at website designers/web design agencies websites, i can give you like a hundred links that none of them show any business details, address... because it is not important in this type of business. The portfolio is the most important thing, because you're looking to get a design that matches your likings? Right? If you like a portfolio, you can jump into more details with the designer/web design agency about your taxes, payments and so on.
Don't confuse web hosting business with this type of business. I'm not selling hosting/server plans, i'm selling web designs. You like my work, you like my pricing we can work together. Easy as that. And i am looking forward to the reply of my question in bold.
And yes, your first reply was an attack to my 'transparency and honesty'. You clearly said we/me are liers for mentioning 2016 as a date because your whois said otherwise.
So... you accuse someone/some business of honesty and transparency, they respond, your points start to fade away and suddenly you lose interest.
No, I lost interest because you clearly didn't actually bother to read my reply.
Nor are you answering my questions or making any sense.
Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me, how'd you know once again that i wasn't offering web design solutions under my business name without a domain?
Why would you assume the company / person is lying just because the domain wasn't registered at the date we advertise to have started designing websites for the hosting industry?
And i repeat myself, this is not a hosting business. I don't need to include every detail, business ID, location, downtimes, datacenters... and all that. It's a web design agency that assuming from your replies you have no clue how they actually work.
The biggest web design agencies in the market, are primarly advertising only their portfolio with an email/call us now number. Nothing else.
Don't mistake me, i'm not saying it's wrong to have those details but you coming here and saying instantly as 'red flags / no transparency business' is triggering beyond your imagination.
Anyways, in the end. These are your thoughts. I would have respected those if you'd have come here in a more friendly way and not pointing fingers instantly and marking me/my business as 'no honesty / no transparency' straight away because of a WHOIS search... makes me 'wow' just thinking of it.
So... you accuse someone/some business of honesty and transparency, they respond, your points start to fade away and suddenly you lose interest.
No, I lost interest because you clearly didn't actually bother to read my reply.
Nor are you answering my questions or making any sense.
I don't have to answer your questions. I voluntarily gave up my free time to give you feedback, and now thoroughly regret it, because I really don't want an argument. I don't have to justify why those things are red flags to me, let's just leave it as the simple statement: if I was looking for a web design, after seeing your website, seeing some red flags (justified or not), not seeing any way to research your company, I would simply move on to the next potential provider.
If I feel this way, then there's a good chance at least one potential customer might also feel the same way. You can think they're wrong if you like, it's no skin off my nose. But getting into an argument with me about it isn't going to change my opinion.
Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me, how'd you know once again that i wasn't offering web design solutions under my business name without a domain?
Firstly, I don't even care whether you were on not. But as I've said over and over, if you say "we" when referring to a company, the natural reading of that to a native English speaker is that "we" refers to the company, not what one guy in the company did before he started the company.
Why would you assume the company / person is lying just because the domain wasn't registered at the date we advertise to have started designing websites for the hosting industry?
I'm not assuming you're lying. Again, I've said this already. I'm saying that i have no way of verifying that it's not a lie. And as such, while I might spend a few tens of pounds up to maybe a hundred on something from you, if I had a project worth thousands or tens of thousands, I wouldn't consider your company for it.
And i repeat myself, this is not a hosting business. I don't need to include every detail, business ID, location, downtimes, datacenters... and all that. It's a web design agency that assuming from your replies you have no clue how they actually work.
I never once said it was a hosting business.
And not that it's any of your concern, or even relevant to this discussion, I have worked for several web design companies and was doing freelance work development from the early days, getting my first paid work in 1996. I distinctly remember having to go back to that client when Netscape 4 was introduced and changed how colours were rendered on 16-colour displays.
In fact, if I were to hazard a guess from your bragging about doing web design since 2016, I was probably doing web development before you were born. So yeah, I have some clue how this works.
The biggest web design agencies in the market, are primarly advertising only their portfolio with an email/call us now number. Nothing else.
The key difference is that they're already well-known. I'm not saying that you will never get any clients by only providing a tiny amount of information about you. I'm saying that most reasonably sized companies will glance at your website, discover that you've not made it easy for them to do due diligence on you as a supplier, and move on, because there are plenty of other companies doing web design. The thing you should be worried about is that you'll never even know about these missed opportunities.
Don't mistake me, i'm not saying it's wrong to have those details but you coming here and saying instantly as 'red flags / no transparency business' is triggering beyond your imagination.
It'd be quite nice if you didn't put things in quote marks and claim I said them when I didn't. I have never once uttered the phrase "no transparency business" for instance.
It seems that you have imagined I've claimed all sorts of other things about your company and now believe I said them. Again, for clarity, my feedback was that looking at your site gave me an impression of a small company, possibly a one-man band, trying to pretend to be big. By not providing any way of verifying anything about your company on the website, there's no reason why I should change my impression of that. There were also various things that stood out to me as suspicious (this is what I mean by "red flag") and if I was considering you as a supplier, I'd for sure note all of these and make sure they were all adequately answered before proceeding.
Anyways, in the end. These are your thoughts.
Exactly, they are my thoughts and impressions from looking at your site. That's EXACTLY what feedback is. The correct response to feedback is to say thank you, and either act on it or ignore it.
I would have respected those if you'd have come here in a more friendly way and not pointing fingers instantly
I never once pointed fingers. I was also friendly, or else I wouldn't even have spent part of my holiday writing actionable feedback that could help you win more customers.
and marking me/my business as 'no honesty / no transparency' straight away
Again, I have never once accused you of being dishonest. I'll agree with the 'no transparency' part, even though you put that in quotes and I never said it.
because of a WHOIS search... makes me 'wow' just thinking of it.
Again, the whois wasn't even the reason I was suspicious about the age of the company. Again, read what I wrote. I'd looked at the age of the blog posts etc, and the maximum age of 2 years didn't align with the claims of the company ("we") of designing web pages since 2016 (6-7 years). The whois search was an afterthought, as evidenced by the fact I added it later as an edit (you even quoted the big EDIT: marker), which confirmed that it was very unlikely your company existed prior to 2020.
But, while we're at it, you keep saying I'm accusing you of things and whatever, and that there's no way I could know if your company was operating before 2020. I'm curious, when did you start the company?
Anyway, the only reason I gave up my time to give you feedback was because I thought it was helping. Instead, you've acted like a petulant child trying to say that my views are wrong and how I need to justify myself to you. I really have had enough of this now, I've wasted enough time on you, and frankly if I'd realised you'd react this way I wouldn't have bothered trying to help.
I will not be replying further. Take my feedback, or don't take my feedback, I don't care.
First of all, we are having a discussion now. It was you who replied to this thread with your straight up confirmations about my business rather than asking questions or letting me clarify it to you.
No one is forcing you to reply on a conversation you started, so why with all the negative vibe now of 'i dont care this.. i dont care that...'. I am only responding to your reply. I am also spending my time replying to your accusations that came out of no where. DO you see me writing 'i dont care for your opionion, i dont care this and that..'?
@ralf said: EDIT: just did a whois on your domain, and it was newly created in 2020. So, now I really don't trust anything on your website to be true if you claim this company was doing web-design business 4 years before it even had its own domain name registered.
You seem to have changed teams now? You said you don't trust anything on the website just from a whois search. What is this below?
@ralf said: I'm not assuming you're lying. Again, I've said this already. I'm saying that i have no way of verifying that it's not a lie.
You first reply is not even considered an assumption. It's a FACT for you. If you don't trust someone/somebody's words, you expect them to be a liar, correct?
@ralf said: I never once pointed fingers. I was also friendly, or else I wouldn't even have spent part of my holiday writing actionable feedback that could help you win more customers.
Weren't you pointing fingers and saying we are not trustable because of the 2016 thing? Weren't you the one saying i don't trust anything on your website now due to that? Isn't that pointing fingers without even asking how/why we advertise it like that? I see no friendly feedback in that, i see a straight up accusation.
You have written a lot.. most of it just denying what you actually wrote yourself in the beginning.
I thought i was having a conversation with a man(assuming you're even a man) that stands by what he said and not cover it and deny it later on. Guess i was wrong.
@ralf said: In fact, if I were to hazard a guess from your bragging about doing web design since 2016..
Oh okay... i am bragging now. okok
@ralf said: The key difference is that they're already well-known.
So big brands are now an exception to providing business details? What the...!
You clearly have no idea yourself what you are saying.
Hey there @armandorg and @ralf ,
I value both of you as individuals and for your contributions to this community. I don't mean to offend anyone with the following words so make of it what you will:
Without taking any sides here, I feel like you guys misunderstood each other at some point (I just can't precisely put my finger on it; it just feels that way after reading both of your comments). It appears to be a mix of different expectations and ways of doing business, but also some other stuff that accumulated over various posts which led to a situation in which a level-headed discussion seems to be close to impossible as both parties have (perhaps?) felt insulted in one way or another and once this sort of level is reached it's hard to find a diplomatic solution.
As far as I am concerned, I think none of you intended for this discussion to turn hostile, initially.
At this point, I think it'd be best for you guys to agree to disagree (as @jarland likes to say) and move on.
I take it @ralf is on vacation right now, and @armandorg will likely also want to focus on other things, so I'd suggest you guys move on as both of you clearly have better things to do If you wish to continue this discussion, by all means, go for it.
I'm not the person who gets to make this decision, but I feel like any time either of you guys put into this discussion from now on is time better spent on something else.
@Ympker said:
Hey there @armandorg and @ralf ,
I value both of you as individuals and for your contributions to this community. I don't mean to offend anyone with the following words so make of it what you will:
Without taking any sides here, I feel like you guys misunderstood each other at some point (I just can't precisely put my finger on it; it just feels that way after reading both of your comments). It appears to be a mix of different expectations and ways of doing business, but also some other stuff that accumulated over various posts which led to a situation in which a level-headed discussion seems to be close to impossible as both parties have (perhaps?) felt insulted in one way or another and once this sort of level is reached it's hard to find a diplomatic solution.
As far as I am concerned, I think none of you intended for this discussion to turn hostile, initially.
At this point, I think it'd be best for you guys to agree to disagree (as @jarland likes to say) and move on.
I take it @ralf is on vacation right now, and @armandorg will likely also want to focus on other things, so I'd suggest you guys move on as both of you clearly have better things to do If you wish to continue this discussion, by all means, go for it.
I'm not the person who gets to make this decision, but I feel like any time either of you guys put into this discussion from now on is time better spent on something else.
You are absolutely correct and i also accept that i was/am triggered and this conversation it is not going to lead anywhere positive. Therefore i will stop replying to @ralf , i do have nothing agains you but in my opinion you have a very bad approach on so called 'feedbacks'. Nothing personal.
@Ympker let me show it to you why i was triggered, and how would you feel if (example):
You are offering services in this forum for logo design. You make a thread about it and you advertise you have been offering logo designs in this forum since 2016. But that's a catch! Your profile is registered in 2020. Now before you know it somebody(?) comes and replies with straight up accusation:
@Somebody said: just looked your profile, and it said created in 2020. So, now I really don't trust anything on your end to be true.
He didn't ask why you claim to have been doing this since 2016 and why you advertise it like this. You could have had a different account that dates back even more than 2016. He wasn't looking for a clarification, he jumped into conclusion. You're a liar.
Anyways, end by me.
And bad or good, if anyone else has any feedback they are more than welcome to reply, hopefully not accusing instantly..
You are absolutely correct and i also accept that i was/am triggered and this conversation it is not going to lead anywhere positive. Therefore i will stop replying to @ralf , i do have nothing agains you but in my opinion you have a very bad approach on so called 'feedbacks'. Nothing personal.
Hey there @armandorg ,
it takes courage to know when it's time to step back and I am happy to find you are willing to make a truce with @ralf
@Ympker let me show it to you why i was triggered, and how would you feel if (example):
You are offering services in this forum for logo design. You make a thread about it and you advertise you have been offering logo designs in this forum since 2016. But that's a catch! Your profile is registered in 2020. Now before you know it somebody(?) comes and replies with straight up accusation:
> @Somebody said: just looked your profile, and it said created in 2020. So, now I really don't trust anything on your end to be true.
He didn't ask why you claim to have been doing this since 2016 and why you advertise it like this. You could have had a different account that dates back even more than 2016. He wasn't looking for a clarification, he jumped into conclusion. You're a liar.
Anyways, end by me.
And bad or good, if anyone else has any feedback they are more than welcome to reply, hopefully not accusing instantly..
This part of your message has the potential to add fuel to the fire even if you probably didn't mean it that way, so I'll keep it short:
I agree that probably anyone would feel bad if they were treated like a "stranger" with no reputation in a forum they have been actively offering services for years. Then again, there could always be new forum members who wouldn't know you or your reputation and thus might question things more.
That is, however, not what happened here as @ralf , just like you, has been a long-standing member of this forum.
I do believe that in his own way, he was addressing the concerns he brought forward, to help you and your company move forward.
That's why I said earlier you probably misunderstood each other but even though I can say as much, it's hard to put the finger on what exactly went wrong (see my initial reply). Hence why I wrote my initial response to let both of you guys know that you are arguing with an individual that means you no harm. Perhaps consider the fact that @ralf took his time to give you feedback during his vacation could be an indicator to show it was meant of goodwill
Regardless, I think it's in everyone's best interest to leave it at that. Please refrain from replying to my post.
Anything you wish to add, feel free to pm me.
Let's get this thread back on track!
Happy Holidays @ralf and all the best for your business to @armandorg
@Ympker said:
Without taking any sides here, I feel like you guys misunderstood each other at some point (I just can't precisely put my finger on it; it just feels that way after reading both of your comments).
Actually, I can put my finger on exactly what the source of confusion is - it's that he think it's fine to say "we" in a company context to include things "he" has done outside of the company context. As I tried to explain, in normal English usage "we" doesn't refer to separate individuals in a company, it refers to the company as a whole.
My first message in this thread was honest feedback based on this - to me it made the site lose credibility without any way of verifying this claim of the company operating since 2016 when all indications were that the company was created in 2020.
Every message of his since then has been based on the assumption that I think he's lying, despite repeatedly saying that I never said that nor do I believe that, only that if I was considering them as a company I'd see what looked like a red flag and just move on to the next web design company instead.
I can understand why he's upset if he thinks I'm saying he's lying, but I've tried many times to tell him that wasn't what I meant.
At this point, I think it'd be best for you guys to agree to disagree (as @jarland likes to say) and move on.
I agree. I tried to bow out on my 2nd message in this thread, even stating that it was pointless arguing, because my feedback was how I perceived the site when I visited. If I got the wrong impression of his business from the site, there are only two causes - either the messaging on the website is wrong, or I interpreted it wrongly. I'm happy to accept I misinterpreted something innocent as being a red flag, but if I can interpret it that way, so can potential customers, and so that itself should still be useful feedback.
I'm not the person who gets to make this decision, but I feel like any time either of you guys put into this discussion from now on is time better spent on something else.
Absolutely. I'm not one to hold grudges, and honestly don't care whether we agree or not. But it'd be nice if he re-read my messages whilst considering the possibility that I was trying to be helpful, but whether he does or not is up to him.
@Ympker said:
Without taking any sides here, I feel like you guys misunderstood each other at some point (I just can't precisely put my finger on it; it just feels that way after reading both of your comments).
Actually, I can put my finger on exactly what the source of confusion is - it's that he think it's fine to say "we" in a company context to include things "he" has done outside of the company context. As I tried to explain, in normal English usage "we" doesn't refer to separate individuals in a company, it refers to the company as a whole.
My first message in this thread was honest feedback based on this - to me it made the site lose credibility without any way of verifying this claim of the company operating since 2016 when all indications were that the company was created in 2020.
Every message of his since then has been based on the assumption that I think he's lying, despite repeatedly saying that I never said that nor do I believe that, only that if I was considering them as a company I'd see what looked like a red flag and just move on to the next web design company instead.
I can understand why he's upset if he thinks I'm saying he's lying, but I've tried many times to tell him that wasn't what I meant.
At this point, I think it'd be best for you guys to agree to disagree (as @jarland likes to say) and move on.
I agree. I tried to bow out on my 2nd message in this thread, even stating that it was pointless arguing, because my feedback was how I perceived the site when I visited. If I got the wrong impression of his business from the site, there are only two causes - either the messaging on the website is wrong, or I interpreted it wrongly. I'm happy to accept I misinterpreted something innocent as being a red flag, but if I can interpret it that way, so can potential customers, and so that itself should still be useful feedback.
I'm not the person who gets to make this decision, but I feel like any time either of you guys put into this discussion from now on is time better spent on something else.
Absolutely. I'm not one to hold grudges, and honestly don't care whether we agree or not. But it'd be nice if he re-read my messages whilst considering the possibility that I was trying to be helpful, but whether he does or not is up to him.
Glad to see you were able to bury the hatchet, too.
I noticed your attempt to bow out, however at some point (due to the quick development of the discussion and emotions being involved) it became difficult for either party to back out, hence why I thought I would suggest you guys to make a truce and spend your time with something more productive, or in your case enjoy vacation
I understand both positions and, like I said, I realize you were meaning no harm initially, but things are as they are and any further discussion will lead to nothing worth wasting more energy or time on.
@armandorg said:
Time to settle this matter real life. @ralf
ralf arguing in another thread? Nothing new. The only thing is, here, he may have been trying to provide honest feedback, which may have been misunderstood? Since "tone" is not conveyed over text, you could not understand if it was a honest feedback or just badmouthing. Either way, best way forward is try to understand if there was a misunderstanding and if there wasn't, ignore those you feel are badmouthing you.
What you say is correct. As a design company, you work closely with your client and do not have a long term commitment and do not need to provide additional details that are expected of hosting companies.
On one side note, you may want to add a "contact us" link in the footer as that is where most people (including me) look for it. It took me a while to find the "let's talk" button, which is not something you want for people on your site. You can also consider those floating chat icons on bottom right that follow you around the page.
@armandorg said:
And @Ympker i'd nominate you for peace keeper and any moderation rank any day mate.
Perfect situation handler without taking sides, as one should be.
Good work @Ympker on keeping peace on this thread. I'll expect you to refund me for my popcorn though...
@somik said:
You can also consider those floating chat icons on bottom right that follow you around the page.
No, please don't! If it is one thing that drives me away from a site faster than anything else, it's those constantly annoying "we are here for you, wanna talk?" bubbles that refuses to go away.
If I want to talk I will let you know, just make sure you have your contact information somewhere on the site.
@somik said:
You can also consider those floating chat icons on bottom right that follow you around the page.
No, please don't! If it is one thing that drives me away from a site faster than anything else, it's those constantly annoying "we are here for you, wanna talk?" bubbles that refuses to go away.
If I want to talk I will let you know, just make sure you have your contact information somewhere on the site.
Hey, it's on many sites cause it works. I mean I get you. I hate it too, specially when they auto expand with a chat message from a bot. Hate it more when every message from the bot makes a sound and you have to look for the background tab making sounds...
Anyway, just a contact us in the footer link is good enough.
@somik said:
You can also consider those floating chat icons on bottom right that follow you around the page.
No, please don't! If it is one thing that drives me away from a site faster than anything else, it's those constantly annoying "we are here for you, wanna talk?" bubbles that refuses to go away.
If I want to talk I will let you know, just make sure you have your contact information somewhere on the site.
Hey, it's on many sites cause it works. I mean I get you. I hate it too, specially when they auto expand with a chat message from a bot. Hate it more when every message from the bot makes a sound and you have to look for the background tab making sounds...
Anyway, just a contact us in the footer link is good enough.
I kind of get it if its on a support or helpdesk section of the site, if you click on support you probably want to talk to someone. So yeah, I can accept that. But in any other scenario, I agree with you, a contact us link in the footer or possibly header is perfect.
Comments
Hello again,
First of all, i was looking for feedback for the new freshed web design and i was more than happy to hear any negative/bad feedbacks too, don't assume i was looking to see only positive feedbacks. Because i am simply responding to your assumptions about 'not much transparency..etc' and trying to explain it to you.
Like the 3d effect which some people did not like, i didn't mind. The point of the thread was to see as much feedback as possible, good or bad may those be. Because after all, i'm looking to improve it and i want to see bad ones, more than good ones.
Also i don't know if you've seen other web designer's websites around, but the only information you need is your portfolio and a contact method. All the business details, VAT requirements, taxes... and so on can be explained and talked once you reach and contact us through your preferred method, email, skype or discord. Because to order our service, you'll have to contact us to start with.
Because i am not selling custom web designs with a 'buy me now' button. That's why we have a FAQ and a 'forced' contact us now part in every page.
And i don't know whatsup with you saying 'i don't know if your agency have been designing websites since 2016 because your domain was registered in 2020'. Because how would you know if my domain was registered in 2016, that i have been designing websites from that same year? Or just domain registered in 2016 is enough to prove i have been designing in that specific year under my business. And why does this even matter? My services are about custom web designs, i have a portfolio to show and if you like my work you can contact for more information, payment method, business details, delivery... etc.
Yet again, like i said. I have a dedicated page explaining how it all started and why we have 'designing websites since 2016'. Because it's the truth.
The quote is: "Since 2016, we've been designing websites for hosting businesses worldwide!" so i believe it's technically correct. My portfolio dates in 2016 for this particular industry (the hosting industry) and therefore i believe i have the right to say it in my website that we have been designing websites for the hosting industry since 2016.
I feel like i am responding somehow in a negative 'vibe' but your accusations/responses about transparency and even 'lying' with the 2016 year part, actually triggered me a bit. Sorry.
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
I previously said I wasn't going to waste any more time justifying my feedback, so I'm actually reticent to reply, but you seem to have again missed the main point. When used by a company, the word "we" is understood by most native English speakers to mean "the company". You may have been designing websites for years, that's irrelevant to the claim about we (the company). Many smaller and/or new companies are happy to talk about their individual experience, but if there is an unqualified claim about what "we" have done, it represents work done for the company, not individual prior experience. If that work was done prior to your company, then presumably you were working for some other company or you were freelancing. In either case, that work isn't directly attributable to the company.
Also, in my experience, small one or two person companies are generally reticent to provide any details about their company because they want to appear bigger than they are. In general, once a company has grown beyond about 5 people, they want to make their company information discoverable because that's the only way medium-sized companies will even consider them. The impression your company gives off is "one person", especially considering you're so desperate to conflate "we" (the company) with "me" (the person).
As someone looking at the website objectively, both of these are red flags that would cause me to consider everything else on the website more carefully. To me, it doesn't matter in the slightest if I can find out more information about your company by contacting you and asking for it, because it is frankly easier to just discount you and look at alternative providers instead. The only case when that might be different is if you were filling the exact niche I was looking for, and I already knew that nobody else provided that service.
None of this is intended to criticise you or your company, I'm simply telling you how I would perceive your website as a potential customer. I honestly don't care whether you take any of this on board or not as I don't need your services anyway, I was just trying to be helpful. If you want to interpret that as an attack, then whatever, but it wasn't meant that way.
Your first reply was:
You don't trust a website because the whois search showed that domain has not been registered in 2016 but 2020 (something i publicly advertise in about us page). And we shouldn't do any marketing that we(me and/or my business) have been designing websites since 2016. Because domain wasn't registered.. therefore i am/we lying.
Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me, how'd you know once again that i wasn't offering web design solutions under my business name without a domain? Because the domain registration seems to have been the most critical issue on the transparency and 'i really don't trust anything on the website now...'. Right! Please answer that question for me. So being a business, as soon as you start offering services you should have a registered domain? How about i was offering my services in this forum for other providers since 2016, under my business name?
And by the way, like i mentioned. I don't know if you have taken a good look at website designers/web design agencies websites, i can give you like a hundred links that none of them show any business details, address... because it is not important in this type of business. The portfolio is the most important thing, because you're looking to get a design that matches your likings? Right? If you like a portfolio, you can jump into more details with the designer/web design agency about your taxes, payments and so on.
Don't confuse web hosting business with this type of business. I'm not selling hosting/server plans, i'm selling web designs. You like my work, you like my pricing we can work together. Easy as that. And i am looking forward to the reply of my question in bold.
And yes, your first reply was an attack to my 'transparency and honesty'. You clearly said we/me are liers for mentioning 2016 as a date because your whois said otherwise.
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
Whatever dude, I don't care anymore.
So... you accuse someone/some business of honesty and transparency, they respond, your points start to fade away and suddenly you lose interest.
Right... whatever.
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
No, I lost interest because you clearly didn't actually bother to read my reply.
Nor are you answering my questions or making any sense.
Why would you assume the company / person is lying just because the domain wasn't registered at the date we advertise to have started designing websites for the hosting industry?
And i repeat myself, this is not a hosting business. I don't need to include every detail, business ID, location, downtimes, datacenters... and all that. It's a web design agency that assuming from your replies you have no clue how they actually work.
The biggest web design agencies in the market, are primarly advertising only their portfolio with an email/call us now number. Nothing else.
Don't mistake me, i'm not saying it's wrong to have those details but you coming here and saying instantly as 'red flags / no transparency business' is triggering beyond your imagination.
Anyways, in the end. These are your thoughts. I would have respected those if you'd have come here in a more friendly way and not pointing fingers instantly and marking me/my business as 'no honesty / no transparency' straight away because of a WHOIS search... makes me 'wow' just thinking of it.
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
I don't have to answer your questions. I voluntarily gave up my free time to give you feedback, and now thoroughly regret it, because I really don't want an argument. I don't have to justify why those things are red flags to me, let's just leave it as the simple statement: if I was looking for a web design, after seeing your website, seeing some red flags (justified or not), not seeing any way to research your company, I would simply move on to the next potential provider.
If I feel this way, then there's a good chance at least one potential customer might also feel the same way. You can think they're wrong if you like, it's no skin off my nose. But getting into an argument with me about it isn't going to change my opinion.
Firstly, I don't even care whether you were on not. But as I've said over and over, if you say "we" when referring to a company, the natural reading of that to a native English speaker is that "we" refers to the company, not what one guy in the company did before he started the company.
I'm not assuming you're lying. Again, I've said this already. I'm saying that i have no way of verifying that it's not a lie. And as such, while I might spend a few tens of pounds up to maybe a hundred on something from you, if I had a project worth thousands or tens of thousands, I wouldn't consider your company for it.
I never once said it was a hosting business.
And not that it's any of your concern, or even relevant to this discussion, I have worked for several web design companies and was doing freelance work development from the early days, getting my first paid work in 1996. I distinctly remember having to go back to that client when Netscape 4 was introduced and changed how colours were rendered on 16-colour displays.
In fact, if I were to hazard a guess from your bragging about doing web design since 2016, I was probably doing web development before you were born. So yeah, I have some clue how this works.
The key difference is that they're already well-known. I'm not saying that you will never get any clients by only providing a tiny amount of information about you. I'm saying that most reasonably sized companies will glance at your website, discover that you've not made it easy for them to do due diligence on you as a supplier, and move on, because there are plenty of other companies doing web design. The thing you should be worried about is that you'll never even know about these missed opportunities.
It'd be quite nice if you didn't put things in quote marks and claim I said them when I didn't. I have never once uttered the phrase "no transparency business" for instance.
It seems that you have imagined I've claimed all sorts of other things about your company and now believe I said them. Again, for clarity, my feedback was that looking at your site gave me an impression of a small company, possibly a one-man band, trying to pretend to be big. By not providing any way of verifying anything about your company on the website, there's no reason why I should change my impression of that. There were also various things that stood out to me as suspicious (this is what I mean by "red flag") and if I was considering you as a supplier, I'd for sure note all of these and make sure they were all adequately answered before proceeding.
Exactly, they are my thoughts and impressions from looking at your site. That's EXACTLY what feedback is. The correct response to feedback is to say thank you, and either act on it or ignore it.
I never once pointed fingers. I was also friendly, or else I wouldn't even have spent part of my holiday writing actionable feedback that could help you win more customers.
Again, I have never once accused you of being dishonest. I'll agree with the 'no transparency' part, even though you put that in quotes and I never said it.
Again, the whois wasn't even the reason I was suspicious about the age of the company. Again, read what I wrote. I'd looked at the age of the blog posts etc, and the maximum age of 2 years didn't align with the claims of the company ("we") of designing web pages since 2016 (6-7 years). The whois search was an afterthought, as evidenced by the fact I added it later as an edit (you even quoted the big EDIT: marker), which confirmed that it was very unlikely your company existed prior to 2020.
But, while we're at it, you keep saying I'm accusing you of things and whatever, and that there's no way I could know if your company was operating before 2020. I'm curious, when did you start the company?
Anyway, the only reason I gave up my time to give you feedback was because I thought it was helping. Instead, you've acted like a petulant child trying to say that my views are wrong and how I need to justify myself to you. I really have had enough of this now, I've wasted enough time on you, and frankly if I'd realised you'd react this way I wouldn't have bothered trying to help.
I will not be replying further. Take my feedback, or don't take my feedback, I don't care.
First of all, we are having a discussion now. It was you who replied to this thread with your straight up confirmations about my business rather than asking questions or letting me clarify it to you.
No one is forcing you to reply on a conversation you started, so why with all the negative vibe now of 'i dont care this.. i dont care that...'. I am only responding to your reply. I am also spending my time replying to your accusations that came out of no where. DO you see me writing 'i dont care for your opionion, i dont care this and that..'?
You seem to have changed teams now? You said you don't trust anything on the website just from a whois search. What is this below?
You first reply is not even considered an assumption. It's a FACT for you. If you don't trust someone/somebody's words, you expect them to be a liar, correct?
Weren't you pointing fingers and saying we are not trustable because of the 2016 thing? Weren't you the one saying i don't trust anything on your website now due to that? Isn't that pointing fingers without even asking how/why we advertise it like that? I see no friendly feedback in that, i see a straight up accusation.
You have written a lot.. most of it just denying what you actually wrote yourself in the beginning.
I thought i was having a conversation with a man(assuming you're even a man) that stands by what he said and not cover it and deny it later on. Guess i was wrong.
Oh okay... i am bragging now. okok
So big brands are now an exception to providing business details? What the...!
You clearly have no idea yourself what you are saying.
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
Hey there @armandorg and @ralf ,
I value both of you as individuals and for your contributions to this community. I don't mean to offend anyone with the following words so make of it what you will:
Without taking any sides here, I feel like you guys misunderstood each other at some point (I just can't precisely put my finger on it; it just feels that way after reading both of your comments). It appears to be a mix of different expectations and ways of doing business, but also some other stuff that accumulated over various posts which led to a situation in which a level-headed discussion seems to be close to impossible as both parties have (perhaps?) felt insulted in one way or another and once this sort of level is reached it's hard to find a diplomatic solution.
As far as I am concerned, I think none of you intended for this discussion to turn hostile, initially.
At this point, I think it'd be best for you guys to agree to disagree (as @jarland likes to say) and move on.
If you wish to continue this discussion, by all means, go for it.
I take it @ralf is on vacation right now, and @armandorg will likely also want to focus on other things, so I'd suggest you guys move on as both of you clearly have better things to do
I'm not the person who gets to make this decision, but I feel like any time either of you guys put into this discussion from now on is time better spent on something else.
All best,
Ympker
Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
Hey @Ympker .
You are absolutely correct and i also accept that i was/am triggered and this conversation it is not going to lead anywhere positive. Therefore i will stop replying to @ralf , i do have nothing agains you but in my opinion you have a very bad approach on so called 'feedbacks'. Nothing personal.
@Ympker let me show it to you why i was triggered, and how would you feel if (example):
He didn't ask why you claim to have been doing this since 2016 and why you advertise it like this. You could have had a different account that dates back even more than 2016. He wasn't looking for a clarification, he jumped into conclusion. You're a liar.
Anyways, end by me.
And bad or good, if anyone else has any feedback they are more than welcome to reply, hopefully not accusing instantly..
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
Hey there @armandorg ,
it takes courage to know when it's time to step back and I am happy to find you are willing to make a truce with @ralf
This part of your message has the potential to add fuel to the fire even if you probably didn't mean it that way, so I'll keep it short:
I agree that probably anyone would feel bad if they were treated like a "stranger" with no reputation in a forum they have been actively offering services for years. Then again, there could always be new forum members who wouldn't know you or your reputation and thus might question things more.
That is, however, not what happened here as @ralf , just like you, has been a long-standing member of this forum.
I do believe that in his own way, he was addressing the concerns he brought forward, to help you and your company move forward.
That's why I said earlier you probably misunderstood each other but even though I can say as much, it's hard to put the finger on what exactly went wrong (see my initial reply). Hence why I wrote my initial response to let both of you guys know that you are arguing with an individual that means you no harm. Perhaps consider the fact that @ralf took his time to give you feedback during his vacation could be an indicator to show it was meant of goodwill
Regardless, I think it's in everyone's best interest to leave it at that. Please refrain from replying to my post.
Anything you wish to add, feel free to pm me.
Let's get this thread back on track!
Happy Holidays @ralf and all the best for your business to @armandorg
Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
Actually, I can put my finger on exactly what the source of confusion is - it's that he think it's fine to say "we" in a company context to include things "he" has done outside of the company context. As I tried to explain, in normal English usage "we" doesn't refer to separate individuals in a company, it refers to the company as a whole.
My first message in this thread was honest feedback based on this - to me it made the site lose credibility without any way of verifying this claim of the company operating since 2016 when all indications were that the company was created in 2020.
Every message of his since then has been based on the assumption that I think he's lying, despite repeatedly saying that I never said that nor do I believe that, only that if I was considering them as a company I'd see what looked like a red flag and just move on to the next web design company instead.
I can understand why he's upset if he thinks I'm saying he's lying, but I've tried many times to tell him that wasn't what I meant.
I agree. I tried to bow out on my 2nd message in this thread, even stating that it was pointless arguing, because my feedback was how I perceived the site when I visited. If I got the wrong impression of his business from the site, there are only two causes - either the messaging on the website is wrong, or I interpreted it wrongly. I'm happy to accept I misinterpreted something innocent as being a red flag, but if I can interpret it that way, so can potential customers, and so that itself should still be useful feedback.
Absolutely. I'm not one to hold grudges, and honestly don't care whether we agree or not. But it'd be nice if he re-read my messages whilst considering the possibility that I was trying to be helpful, but whether he does or not is up to him.
Glad to see you were able to bury the hatchet, too.
I noticed your attempt to bow out, however at some point (due to the quick development of the discussion and emotions being involved) it became difficult for either party to back out, hence why I thought I would suggest you guys to make a truce and spend your time with something more productive, or in your case enjoy vacation
I understand both positions and, like I said, I realize you were meaning no harm initially, but things are as they are and any further discussion will lead to nothing worth wasting more energy or time on.
Enjoy your vacation, mate!
Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
Time to settle this matter real life. @ralf
And @Ympker i'd nominate you for peace keeper and any moderation rank any day mate.
Perfect situation handler without taking sides, as one should be.
Web Design Agency - Custom Web Designs
WHMCS.design - WHMCS Themes | Blesta.shop - Blesta Themes
ralf arguing in another thread? Nothing new. The only thing is, here, he may have been trying to provide honest feedback, which may have been misunderstood? Since "tone" is not conveyed over text, you could not understand if it was a honest feedback or just badmouthing. Either way, best way forward is try to understand if there was a misunderstanding and if there wasn't, ignore those you feel are badmouthing you.
What you say is correct. As a design company, you work closely with your client and do not have a long term commitment and do not need to provide additional details that are expected of hosting companies.
On one side note, you may want to add a "contact us" link in the footer as that is where most people (including me) look for it. It took me a while to find the "let's talk" button, which is not something you want for people on your site. You can also consider those floating chat icons on bottom right that follow you around the page.
Good work @Ympker on keeping peace on this thread. I'll expect you to refund me for my popcorn though...
Somik.org - Server admins cheat codes
No refunds on popcorn, I'm afraid. Events like these come without any warranties nor guarantees. So best to save up your popcorn for the next topic
@armandorg I agree, with what @somik suggested in regards to adding a Contact Us in the footer. Many people would look for it there
Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
No, please don't! If it is one thing that drives me away from a site faster than anything else, it's those constantly annoying "we are here for you, wanna talk?" bubbles that refuses to go away.
If I want to talk I will let you know, just make sure you have your contact information somewhere on the site.
Hey, it's on many sites cause it works. I mean I get you. I hate it too, specially when they auto expand with a chat message from a bot. Hate it more when every message from the bot makes a sound and you have to look for the background tab making sounds...
Anyway, just a contact us in the footer link is good enough.
Somik.org - Server admins cheat codes
I kind of get it if its on a support or helpdesk section of the site, if you click on support you probably want to talk to someone. So yeah, I can accept that. But in any other scenario, I agree with you, a contact us link in the footer or possibly header is perfect.