Resource Pool Pricing Guidelines - Feedback Wanted

uptime · November 2019

Looking to get a better sense of what would be appropriate pricing guidelines for resource pools.

(As per https://talk.lowendspirit.com/discussion/comment/3249/#Comment_3249)

So far for KVM pools we have @HostDoc starting with a 1 GB ram / 30 GB storage / 2 instance pool in the EU region @ £4.89/m (about $6.35 - regular pricing at https://kvm.doctor/cloud/ - see comment below for previous "deal" pricing.) and going up to £16.50/m (about $21.50) for 5 GB ram / 80 GB storage / 5 instances in several locations in the USA.

And the unadvertised KVM pool from @SMARTHOST with 2 GB ram / 5 instances @ $6.95/m in many locations in the USA and also in Amsterdam.

for OpenVZ resource pools we might look forward to seeing anyNode and impactVPS finding their way here "real soon now" ...

anyNode advertised a few OpenVZ7 resource pool deals available just in Miami back in May, ranging from $12/yr (1 core - not sure how that makes a "pool" but okay whatever) up to $7/m or $72/yr for:

6 virtual machines max
6 Cores (max 1 per VM)
6GB RAM 
120GB SSD
6 IPs
6TB bandwidth

and impactVPS has standard pricing listed on their website for their well-regarded resource pool product starting at:

$12/m for 4 GB ram / 4 cores / 45 GB storage (with 5 IP addresses)

and going up to:

$60/m for 20 GB ram / 20 cores / 225 GB storage (with 25 IP addresses)

available in Seattle, New York, and Dallas.

dahartigan · November 2019

There's also the KVM and VZ pools from anyNode, around the same price point which I've used and are indeed quality potassium.

It's no secret I love resource pools, especially if they are cheap. As for a price guideline, that's incredibly tricky because some of the best deals are above $7 (ex some @HostDoc pools are insanely good value, there was one at 12 squid a month for 12 cores, 12gb ram, etc)

As you mention, @SMARTHOST has excellent potassium pools, the $6.95 KVM pool can be upgraded which helps keep the initial price under $7 which I think was either lucky coincidence or pure genius.

I'm going to watch this like a hawk, pools make me wet.

seriesn · November 2019

Maybe a maximum $/Ram and storage combo?

Usually average KVM offers around here are anywhere around $2-4/GB of RAM and $1-3/10 GB of SSD.

uptime · November 2019

sounds good boss but best I can do is about tree fiddy!

seriesn · November 2019

@uptime said:
sounds good boss but best I can do is about tree fiddy!

Man, in my half-awakened status, I saw free titty. I am disappointed.

vimalware · November 2019

This thread! You beat me to it while I made coffee.

Here are my views on 'compelling value deal' in the category Resource pool:

Virtualization : KVM

Choice of location : depends on provider.
I'd like to see 2-3 minimum. But I'll probably just end up using one DC.

Storage : regular SSD. Minimum 9000 IOPS

IPv4: minimum 3

vCPU : at least as many as included IPv4.
Per VM vCPU count could be capped at 4, at provider discretion( limiting abuse.)

RAM:

Minimum: 2GB for first 3 IPs included
At least an additional 1GB for every IPv4 over the minimum 3 (+ the vCPU rules above)
Personally, I'd like to see 4GB as a starting point, because it opens up many different VM sizing options : vpn,www,db,memcache, php-only etc

Network : 1Gigabit, with at least 250mbit usable at all times (this is low end spirit)

Pricing limits:

Digression with anecdote :The sticker price is never the only factor in a pool buy decision.
Case in point : @Smarthost has this secret KVM resource pool that you need to hunt a little to find. ( Details already mentioned by previous posters.)
The reason I was able to hold off on hitting BUY, is that it seemed too stingy with RAM, relative to the included IPs. I'd rather have seen the same offer at something like $16/qtr with 3IPs.
Yes, I understand the provider was forced into it by the dreaded $7/m rule.
But hey, we all want to help providers stick it to PayPal and save IPs from depletion.

So. Shall we say:

$7.7/mo or $21/qtr for offers with minimum 3xIPs
$10/m or $27/qtr limit for offers with minimum 4xIPs.
$11/m or $30/qtr for offers with minimum 5 IPs.

This leaves providers to customize their RAM and included bandwidth within these price limits.

I am assigning an almost no-profit margin per owned IP in above proposal. Thoughts on ($2/3=$0.66) being a fair increment to account for IPv4 wholesale ownership cost?
@drserver @hostodo @freerangecloud

We want the quarterly price limits to approximate a cheap dedi with /29, since that is something that these resource pools are good at subbing-in, for 99% users.

Sorry. This came out longer than I expected after typing out on mobile.
it may have major errors.

poisson · November 2019

I think it is a whole lot neater to use a per resource price limit. Something like this:

$1 per vCPU per month
$1 per 1GB RAM per month
$0.10 per 1GB SSD storage per month
$0.50 per IP address per month

Providers can then advertise like this:

Sample Resource pool package (KVM)

4 vCPU  - $4 p/m
4GB RAM - $4 p/m
40GB SSD Storage - $4 p/m
5 IP addresses - $2.50 p/m

Total: $14.50 p/m

This way, there is no cap on the absolute price per month but we can keep the resource pool pricing low end by stipulating the upper limit of what constitutes a low end resource pool price.

We just need to standardise what are the items that should go into each resource pool package and what is the per unit price. Providers still have lots of flexibility to decide how to offer their package.

ITLabs · November 2019

^^^ I like that Poisson Distribution.

Edit: multiples DCs and Anycast please.

teamacc · November 2019

I'm going for the argument that a resource pool with the ability to create at least 3 vpsses can cost twice as much as a regular vps.

Anything priced above 14 usd won't be interesting anyway, as a dedi is in that range already.

poisson · November 2019

@teamacc said:
Anything priced above 14 usd won't be interesting anyway, as a dedi is in that range already.

Not entirely true because you will only get shitty CPU cores until you really scale up for the higher end dedis. Maybe everything else is comparable to a dedi at 14 usd, but no way CPU can compare.

InceptionHosting · November 2019

I think we need to hear from some hosts that offer them, my thinking right now based on everyone’s comments are:

$10 with the ability to create at least 3 servers as I think everything else naturally gets taken care of in that.

Might be wrong. Let’s let this play out a bit more.

dahartigan · November 2019

Resource pools particularly with multiple locations can be more valuable than the equivalent resources in the one VPS, if that makes any sense. The premiumness of locations on offer, ex most offer more than 5 (smarthost is at 13 iirc), and some just the 1 or 2, I believe anynode has a bunch, hostdoc has over 10 (with some exceptions)

I understand why some people have no need for them, but it's a great tool for the tinkerer and testing new software, etc.

Shoaib_A · November 2019

I would say resource pool offers should be 12-14$ maximum per month with ability to spin up at least 3 virtual instances. And leave it up to providers to decide how much RAM, Disk Space they can offer based on the hardware & location of the server. With 12-14$ pricing we might be able to see some offers in exotic locations as well. IPv4 pricing is also a factor as I can see quite a few datacenters charging up to 2 USD/GBP/EUR per IPv4 these days. So let's keep a little room for offers in exotic locations as well otherwise it will be a free for all between only those who either own their IPv4 space or get it by paying onetime fee only such as those who offer virtual servers in different OVH locations.

uptime · November 2019

agree would be good to hear from more providers

definitely preferable to keep things as simple as possible

that said ... some price points seem to resonate

3 for $10 seems about right - but maybe just a little bit tight ...

(maybe that one could go up to $11? )

and the 4 for $14 has a nice feel to it as well - and that works out to $3.50 per instance

(which feels like an almost "standard pricing" level for the high end of lowend - such as where one can get a lunanode 512 MB ram KVM hourly, or a buyvm 1 GB ram KVM slice monthly ... also Hetzner cloud with 2 GB ram KVM billed hourly for about €3/m)

the $14 price is also nice because it would allow current ImpactVPS offers (which start at $12 for 4 x OVZ / 1 GB ram / 10 GB disk instances)

just in case @vimalware's tags got lost in an edit, repeating here to solicit opinions ftom @Radi @freerangecloud and @hostodo - also @hostEONS

who else ...?

@HostDoc and @SMARTHOST already tagged

Also what about leapswitch? They have an interesting virtuozo + docker "cloudjiffy" deal - anyone tried it? Not exactly sure how it would line up with resource pool pricing (some more granularity to the supposedly autoscalong resources which are billed as used rather than pre-allocated)

anyway ... keeping it simple lol

(Also I put in sales tickets with anyNode and ImpactVPS to come check out this thread - might take them a while considering it is the weekend)

seriesn · November 2019

@dahartigan I think the biggest concern with multiple location based resource pool would be stock availability and stock balancing ? If I am selling you 20GB RAM and 2000GB STORAGE, I need to keep that open and available 24/7 in every single locations. Which means my operating cost will be higher.

dahartigan · November 2019

@seriesn said:
@dahartigan I think the biggest concern with multiple location based resource pool would be stock availability and stock balancing ? If I am selling you 20GB RAM and 2000GB STORAGE, I need to keep that open and available 24/7 in every single locations. Which means my operating cost will be higher.

Not quite. With virtualizor and solusvm it can deny creation if the node hasn't got the specs. Not ideal, but not at all an uncommon sight to see that message as a customer, in my experience.

Your example of 20gb and 2000gb would be insane

seriesn · November 2019

@dahartigan said:

@seriesn said:
@dahartigan I think the biggest concern with multiple location based resource pool would be stock availability and stock balancing ? If I am selling you 20GB RAM and 2000GB STORAGE, I need to keep that open and available 24/7 in every single locations. Which means my operating cost will be higher.

>

Not quite. With virtualizor and solusvm it can deny creation if the node hasn't got the specs. Not ideal, but not at all an uncommon sight to see that message as a customer, in my experience.

Which in return might and will create negative customer experience:/

Your example of 20gb and 2000gb would be insane

2, 20, 200 or 2000, logic remains the same.

HostDoc · November 2019

I think one thing alot of you have forgotten is a vCore limit per instance within the pool plan itself which makes it easier to manage rather than selling a 4vCore plan and allowing a client to create an instance with all 4vCores, abuse the hell out of it, destroy it and create another with a new IP in a new location to continue abusing.
So for example, on a lot of the pool offers we have, we limit each VPS to 1 or 2vCores. The client is then free to utilize all the resources on a single VPS, but it will only have one vCore.

What truely makes a pool is the ability to launch a VPS in multiple locations on demand. It is basically a cloud plan but with a fixed monthly cost (no nasty surprises). VPS can be created when needed in any location needed and can then be destroyed when finished freeing up the resources used to then be deployed elsewhere for another project.

Many clients use it for a single website and roundrobin as we do not offer anycast yet.

Take this thread for example:
1 vCore
512MB RAM
10GB HDD
500GB Bandwidth
1 IP
1 VM Max
£3.39/m | £20 Per Year

This is a single VPS pool. So why is it a pool? Because unlike a single VPS, you can destroy it and recreate in another location. The price increase in comparism to a single VPS with the same specs is the flexibility to control it. The risk of clients blacklisting an IP and then changing for a new one also needs to be accounted for.

Resource pools can also can also be resold which makes it attractive for resellers while having the ability to scale individual resources as needed relatively cheaply or just stack another pool on top of the existing one.
The resellers can then offer all of our locations and also make a tidy profit if dealing with private clients.

So, to answer the question on pricing guidlines is an awkward one because not all servers are equal especially when renting the hardware. Some locations are by default more expensive than others e.g Singapore/UK.
This makes pricing the plan a little more complicated. Pricing will have to be based on the most expensive location which in turn would not appeal to a user who just wanted EU locations but would appeal to a SG user.

@poisson has the right idea with his breakdown, but once again, such pricing would have to be based on the providers overheads.
A provider renting hardware and paying $1/m per month per IP is not going to sell IPs in that location for $0.50/m even if they can afford to do so in other locations unless the margins from other locations will cover the loss from the more expensive location.
We already offer a price breakdown such as this but it is applicable to all resource scaling including individual VPS.
Therefore, the pool plan purchased can be viewed as the base plan in that case which is overall much cheaper than building the pool resource by resource which would be more expensive.

Pricing for pools will always vary as different providers have different overheads to account for. It is not just hardware and IPs, there are licenses, provider time and hopefully a margin to account for when setting up pricing.

Sorry about the wall of text and somewhat confusing explanation.

localhost · November 2019

Sorry for being naive.. how do these resource pools work?

dahartigan · November 2019

@HostDoc thanks for the explanation from your point of view. Resource pools are awesome.

I forgot to add too, the panel - virtualizor lets you modify an instances resources like memory, disk, etc whereas solusvm requires a ticket to have that done. In @HostDoc example of reselling, this is a huge factor to be aware of.

I would personally cap my max spend on a pool to $20/month unless it was extremely hard to pass up.

I hope my ramblings help, I'm not 100% clear on what information would help the most..

dahartigan · November 2019

@localhost said:
Sorry for being naive.. how do these resource pools work?

You're given a set of resources (example 2gb ram, 20gb ssd, 2 ipv4) you use the control panel to create your own VPS from those resources. They come in multiple locations depending on the provider.

uptime · November 2019

@uptime said:
@HostDoc starting with a 1 GB ram / 30 GB storage / 2 instance pool in the EU region @ £4.89/m (about $6.35 - regular pricing at https://kvm.doctor/cloud/ - see comment below for previous "deal" pricing.) and going up to £16.50/m (about $21.50) for 5 GB ram / 80 GB storage / 5 instances in several locations in the USA.

@HostDoc thank you for the perspective regarding costs and risks for providers.

Looking at the current standard pricing for resource pools in different regions listed on your website - it seems like EU pools might fit into a "3 instances for $11" or "4 instances for $14" price limit but that would be a bit of a stretch for Asia or even US locations?

I'm saying this just based on the listing for £16.50/m for 5 GB ram / 80 GB storage / 5 instances in US lpcations - which works out to something over $4 per instance in the USA - definitely a fair price for good stuff I think, but maybe roughly almost 25% over the $3.50 "magic" (entirely arbitrary) number that I tend to consider as somewhat of a reference point.

Not an easy hurdle to jump wearing a one-size-fits-all shoe ... Seems almost pretty close but possibly still a significant distance for sustainable offers in some regions (including one I would be interested in seeing here)

What parameters might make offering resource pools here work better for you - even if just as an occasional special promotional price?

willie · November 2019

Resource pools are a weird enough thing that I don't think LES needs special guidelines for them.

vimalware · November 2019

Yes, just set a 50% higher price limit and let providers sort out what specs, features and locations they can cram in.

localhost · November 2019

@dahartigan said:

@localhost said:
Sorry for being naive.. how do these resource pools work?

You're given a set of resources (example 2gb ram, 20gb ssd, 2 ipv4) you use the control panel to create your own VPS from those resources. They come in multiple locations depending on the provider.

So, I can still choose to have just 1 big vps off all / I can spin off as many vms as possible within the pool resource? Correct?

willie · November 2019

@vimalware said: Yes, just set a 50% higher price limit

Keep price limit the same, just mention in post that combining and subdividing plans is allowed. As always, plans over $7 can be on the provider's site.

uptime · November 2019

@localhost said:
have just 1 big vps off all

for that scenario better just look for a good "big vps" deal - resource pool can put a low limit on the number of cores per instance.

Being able allocate flexible amounts of RAM and disk across mulltiple instances is one of the more interesting features of a resource pool.

poisson · November 2019

@localhost said:
Sorry for being naive.. how do these resource pools work?

Like DO or Linode where you can customize your instance, just that for resource pools, you have certain limits as @HostDoc explained but you also have a fixed price.

uptime · November 2019

Simplest thing would be to set limit at $7 per instance. So price for a pool allowing 2 instances could be anything up to $14.

Obviously a pretty generous limit but it keeps the math really simple. And providers can choose how competitive their specific prices for different locations are in that range - with a goodly amount of flexibility to offer some exceptionally superior potassium here

localhost · November 2019

This is interesting stuff. Guess I was in a different world buying single vps for idling, where I could get a pool now!!

/s

willie · November 2019

localhost said: So, I can still choose to have just 1 big vps off all / I can spin off as many vms as possible within the pool resource? Correct?

Typically you have to assign an ipv4 to each vm. That said it still seems to me like a gimmick product that is rarely offered. DO lets you aggregate bandwidth between VM's but not stuff like ram. And I think they only do that because people were doing it sneakily anyway, by proxying thru the internal network.

Resource Pool Pricing Guidelines - Feedback Wanted

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